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Post by TERRY TRUE on Feb 7, 2008 18:24:23 GMT -5
Stretch Excuse me for getting your working body's dander up. I think I read somewhere that the US prosecuted the Japs for the same thing and far as I know it still a crime. May be we are above all international laws.
Belittling you. VERY SORRY ........... NOT MY INTENT
Tell it to a politician. I work for a living.
Oh by the way I worked for a living to. Sorry for that misunderstanding.
Terry
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Post by Stretch on Feb 7, 2008 18:47:26 GMT -5
Whoops. My apologies. Heh heh. ;D Took it the wrong way... sorry about that. Like in my first post in this thread, I absolutely agree that waterboarding is torture. Expanding on your thought about Japan... like many illegal things that occur in wars, the acts made by the victors are rarely prosecuted. That's the reason why little or nothing will be done about interrogation techniques that cross the line in Guantanamo and other US bases (unless some numbskull snaps pictures of it , a la the National Guard troops at the US-held Abu Ghraib prison). But... some of those douchebags have information that can be wrung from their skulls that can be used to save American lives. Illegal? Maybe, maybe not, depending on whose side you're on. That drops into a question of ethics... Is something right because the act of doing it can be used for the common good? Or does that not matter... hurting someone is always wrong? Opinions will vary. Sometimes, it's either Us or Them. I vote for Us. Our enemies want us dead. Every man, woman, and child. If these prisoners were not suspected of bearing arms against us, they wouldn't have been taken prisoner. Mustaffa the innocent shopkeeper has very little to fear if he's not running with (or hiding) insurgents and weapons. I'm sure there are stories about innocent men being dragged from their beds by American troops and interrogated for days. But on the other side of the same coin, you are not likely to hear any stories about the millions of Iraqi men who have never been hassled. The vast majority of Iraqis don't want to take up arms against the U.S., they just want us to disappear from their homeland so they can get on with their lives. If I were to be taken prisoner by Muslim extremists, I would expect them to torture me, whether I knew anything or not. Knowing is rarely the point for these kinds of people. My not wanting them to torture me would have little bearing on the outcome of the day's events. I'll wish us up a cure for cancer while I'm at it.
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Post by TERRY TRUE on Feb 7, 2008 19:56:52 GMT -5
Stretch, Very well put.... We all know that this stuff is done, but i would like to think that our country would make sure that it don't make it to the press and if it does they should make sure the world knows that we will punish our men. Reputation..... If ya got dirty socks on don't take your shoes off.
Terry
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Post by Stretch on Feb 7, 2008 20:24:00 GMT -5
And that's what's happening for the most part. Soldiers and Marines who are accused of specific atrocities and excessive force are investigated and punished (if found guilty).
Abu Ghraib (again) is a good example. Those dip$hits took pictures, and they got into the hands of a reporter. Good night, Irene.
And the murder of Iraqi civilians by Marines in Najaf (in the presence of a reporter, for chrissakes). Those guys were sent up the flagpole for all the world to see, as they should have been.
But too many of the torture allegations are just that... allegations. Of course Mahmoud tells his lawyer he's being tortured... he knows the lawyer will then go out and submit a story to Al-Jazeera, the veritable Beacon of Fair and Balanced Free Speech in the Middle East, and from there the anti-American, anti-military world press short-strokes it all the way to the Attorney General's office.
On the subject of doing it and not getting caught...
It's simply a different world now. Back in the bad old days, hard men did what was necessary to get the job done and kept their mouths shut for the sake of National Security (capital letters).
Nowadays, there are too many nancys that do the job, but then can't live with it, so they 'come clean' on Oprah and write books.
We've seen them...the 'victim' that comes forward and confesses that they had been brainwashed by The Agency to feed Bacon Bits to Muslim prisoners. These kind of mush-brained individuals should never be allowed anywhere near sensitive information, much less personal contact with detainees. They should be kept in the accounting office, working on Osama bin Laden's income tax audit.
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Post by mikeyb on Feb 7, 2008 23:11:12 GMT -5
You know Stretch hit the nail on the head, We don't have enough since not to get caught? But I think the training that is given serves our troops well?They go into an area and don't know who your friends are usually nobody and you get hit, Troops sweep through a village or town and are pissed that their friends and comrades were hit and some dumb S.O.B. sees a movement and all hell brakes lose. Then some bleeding heart a$$whole Reporter sees a Marine enter a bldg. and follows and because the Marine didn't wait for the raghead on the ground to shoot first he calls it murder? We were taught to shoot first and ask questions later and I say kill them all and let Ali sort them out I have no use for any of them. Just like Nam but different in other ways it seems like histroy repeats itself over and over again. Rich you are not the only one who rants on.
Mike B
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Post by joed47 on Feb 8, 2008 6:51:50 GMT -5
Eric,I was Wondering how long it would take you to answer that. I knew you would. HAHAHAHA Semper Fi and keep up the good work. JoeD. ( you silver tounged devil )
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Post by Stretch on Feb 8, 2008 9:58:21 GMT -5
Yeah, you've known me longer than about anyone else here... I'm an opinionated hothead.
Heh. Sorry. ;D
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Post by jarhead32 on Feb 8, 2008 11:24:12 GMT -5
Stretch, JoeD, Terry & Mike B, On this topic -one has their say? Remember, when the 'Bad Guys' come -next time-they are not friendly-No Prisoners w/ them making life very unpleasant? I'm being nice ,w/the choice of my words! Hey,how will "SERE" prepare our side? It is a shame that so many don't understand the threat ? Somehow,we need to help our fellow marines & other Vets to wake up=NOW?-Semper Fi- The Crazy Old Man-RichW/49
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Post by joed47 on Feb 8, 2008 13:00:42 GMT -5
We all are at times. Semper Fi JoeD.
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Post by mikeyb on Feb 8, 2008 13:08:18 GMT -5
Stretch, You need to relax man I think he was only pulling your leg man. I agree their going to have to pry the weapon out of my cold dead hand because I will be damned if I give up to some raghead or any other a$$ munch who wants to take our country by force.
Mike B
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Post by swanny on Feb 8, 2008 15:21:20 GMT -5
Stretch, Keep it up! I enjoy your insight and agree with most of it.I notice the way the ragheads interview there prisoners with a nice little beheading that is video taped and posted on the world wide web~The Japs did the same thing during WW2~I bet our guys would of rather been water boarded instead of beheaded!! I hope they come up with something a little better than waterboarding and don't let us know what it is. We just need the results for our side! Washington is to worried about the bad guys and not worried about our guys!Semper Fi!..Dale
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Post by jarhead32 on Feb 8, 2008 16:43:14 GMT -5
Stretch,Swanny & all, Sure Washington,DC cares about the Marine, Soldier,Sailor,Airman & Coast Guardsman? All of them-talk is cheap? Boy,Do they support us? Some have gone on tours-OCONUS-they did try? Some-but its 'Politics'only. Photo Op ? Instead of trying to find out-"What is needed in the future & how to get there? Replace Worn Out People ( 4 or 5 times to Iraq &/or Afghanistan ), Equipment, Vehicles & Support Equip.? In a lot of ways,we need more personnel to go forward from other units? Remember,Every Marine is a 'Rifleman' & bring that forward in the other services? ;D Then deploy?Semper Fi-The Crazy Old Man-RichW/49
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Post by ohdjar49 on Feb 14, 2008 19:36:28 GMT -5
All, Yep, Water boarding was ruled illegal? Depends when & where its done? In the War ,we are currently in-I guess we can be bad as or worse than our enemy? Like in the 'Old Testament;you did not love your enemy?? We are now in either World War III or IV? ;D Heard it both ways? We have to see the them coming our way & be ready for them? Today,I don't know what that means? =Semper Fi-The Crazy Old Man-RichW/49
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Post by jarhead32 on Mar 6, 2008 21:41:15 GMT -5
It had been used on some of those held at 'Git mo'-Nope it is not in the Army Manual as it now stands? ;D I am not saying it is right or moral; but the 'Towel Heads will not go by the book at all? They operate using fear & unheard of methods of torture? Their prisoners do not survive? It is hard to handle & do,based on our religious beliefs? Get ready for them to come over the 'Berm'? Semper Fidelis-The Crazy Old Man- RichW/49
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